I went out to dinner with my family for my youngest sister’s birthday last night. Toward the end of the dinner I started a discussion about whether or not the college you go to really matters educationally. My argument was that there is nothing meaningfully different between being educated at the College of Charleston (where I went) and being educated at Harvard.
Here’s my side: If I studied and worked hard at a class and got an A at CofC I would’ve gotten an A in the same class at Harvard. The reason for this is that the beauty of college is that it is entirely up to you. The teacher isn’t there to coddle you; he/she just presents the information and then you absorb it, synthesize it, and create new thoughts pertaining to it all on your own. Because the impetuous is on you, it doesn’t matter what setting you are in (Harvard or CofC). It isn’t like the kids at Harvard get the real version of Kant’s Critique of Practical Reason while I, at CofC, got a fake version. We all had the same book and our education, therefore, was incumbent on how hard we tried to understand that book (note: no one in the entire world actually understands that particular book). Being at Harvard doesn’t grant you special insight into Kantian philosophy or anything else. It all depends on how hard you work, how much effort you put forth, and that is entirely independent of what school you attend.
My entire family basically disagreed with me, particular one of my sisters who went to 3 schools for undergrad and one more for graduate school. Here’s their side of the argument: The quality of the education you receive at Harvard is better than what you’d receive at CofC. They pointed out all the people they knew who also attended CofC who were less than stellar scholars shall we say. These people graduated despite being not all together concerned with academic pursuits. My family argued that these people would not have been able to skate by like they did at CofC at a university like Harvard. Thus, they argued, there is a difference between getting an A at Harvard and getting one at CofC. Also, they believed that this fact meant that the caliber of students at Harvard is better and hence the class discussions would be of a higher quality. Furthermore, they pointed out that the best professors are pursued by schools like Harvard so the professors at those institutes are superior. Pointing to personal experience my sister said that she took the same class that used the exact same book at Wake Forest, Converse College, and Presbyterian College. She held that the class at Wake required more of the students through labs and exercises and test that were more difficult than the ones at the other two places (she graduated from PC and said that was nearly as good at Wake). So in their mind, getting an A at Harvard was better than getting an A at CofC.
Ok now here’s my retort to all of that: First of all, while the professors might be highly thought of in academic circles, they gained that notoriety by publishing articles. When Harvard hires them, they do it so that this professor or public figure will continue to publish articles and have his/her notoriety associated with their university. So their job isn’t to teach, it’s to publish. Hence, the whole ‘the professors are better and provide a better education at Harvard’ argument flies out the window because in reality teacher’s assistants are the one’s doing the bulk of the work associated with ‘teaching’ while the professor writes his/her next book. Second, the idea that the class discussions are better at Harvard is also false. Compared to the student body at a state school like CofC, the Harvard campus is pretty monotonous: rich, from New England, overachievers. A discussion at a state school would bring in opinions from all sorts of people with all sorts of different backgrounds and therefore the discussion would be more realistic (ie reflecting the views of actual people) and therefore better.
Now onto the crux of the argument. Sure some people at CofC do the bare minimum and skate by. Hell there was a class or two (or three or four) where I did the bare minimum and still got an A or a B. But that’s where the mirage of ‘more prestigious’ universities and colleges rears its ugly head. The problem with CofC is that if I barely tried or if I really exerted myself and studied as hard as I could, I got essentially the same grade. But that doesn’t mean the quality of my education is equal despite the similar grades. If I busted my hump, the quality of the education I received was far greater than if I did only what was required. Therefore, if you bust your hump at CofC or PC or Converse or wherever, you would meet the higher, more stringent standards of a place like Wake or Harvard or Yale or wherever even though no one actually put those higher, more stringent standards on you. Put another way, if you do the maximum amount it doesn’t matter if the bar was set low or high because having done the maximum amount you would’ve cleared either bar. Hence the only real advantage of a ‘more prestigious’ school is that through higher standards it forces you to work hard by ensuring that anything less than your best effort will result in a poor grade. But all that advantage does is weed out slackers. If you worked hard and got an A at CofC you still would’ve gotten an A at Wake or Harvard by putting forth the same amount of effort because the maximum effort exceeds both low and high standards. Therefore, where you go to school doesn’t really matter and I’ve proven my initial point.
Now here’s where things get really interesting because it isn’t enough to just say that a hard earned A is a hard earned A no matter where you go to school. I believe that the advantage ‘more prestigious’ schools have, which I just mentioned in the paragraph above, is actually a disadvantage and therein makes getting an A at College of Charleston better than getting an A at Harvard.
Education-wise, I hated high school. I hated it because everything was meticulously planned and everyone was looking over your shoulder. As a result I refused to try hard and my grades were very average (My senior year in English class I never read one word of Silas Marner or Wuthering Heights and happily took zeros on all the quizzes for those two book. As punishment for this, the teacher made me sit in my desk facing the back wall.). Conversely, I loved college because you could take whatever class you wanted and no one was breathing down your neck about what you were doing. If you didn’t want to try hard the professor just didn’t bother with you. If you did want to try hard the professor would make every effort to ensure that you fulfilled your potential. High school is basically educational boot camp at best and educational jail at worst. College, on the other hand, is educational freedom.
This is where the distinction comes in. At Harvard you are free to pick your own classes, but once in that class you are forced by their rigorous standards to put forth the maximum effort or else you’ll fail out. At CofC you are not only free to pick your own classes, but you’re also free to try hard or just skate by. Given this situation, Harvard students do not personally make the choice to try hard because the institution simply commands it. If you’re a CofC student, however, you can use your own free will to decide, in the face of temptation (when I went there it was 70% women and voted by High Times as one of their ‘best’ colleges), to try hard. Anytime someone freely opts to do the right thing instead of doing the right thing because they were forced too, the person freely choosing is better than the person being forced. That’s just a basic philosophical principle, which, by the way, I learned at CofC, and it proves that an A at CofC is better than an A at Harvard (with the caveat that you put forth the maximum effort in earning that A at CofC) because you freely decided to do all the work that a Harvard student getting an A would have been required to do.
(Note: My high praise for CofC only applies to the years 2004 and earlier. Few things anger me more than the fact that now CofC has become USC East. A school that once prided itself on having barely any fraternities is now flush with guys wearing their sunglasses backwards. I find this unacceptable and will never give CofC any money until the situation is rectified and beatniks like myself are once again the dominate social force at CofC.)
February 8, 2009 at 8:49 pm
You could’ve avoided all of this argument by just going to Furman. There the professors are not really publishing and they’re legitimately interested in teaching.
February 8, 2009 at 10:53 pm
Yeah Charleston was like that too. My advisor was just an awesome dude. He’d had some stuff published but what really into teaching. Actually, they probably do this at Furman and other small liberal arts schools, tenure was tied into your student reports. So when my advisor came up for tenure they sent me a letter asked what i thought of him as a teacher. Obviously, I can’t testify to his published works so the whole point of asking me is to see if I still remember him as a good teacher. He was and that weighed heavily into him getting tenure.
So that’s cool and makes small liberal arts schools way better than douchey ivy leagers.
However, not to diss your alma mater, but there are two reasons I could not ever go to Furman. 1) my dad went to Wofford and I grew up going to Wofford basketball and football games so there is no way I was going to go to their arch rival Furman. 2) two words my friend: “dry campus”
February 9, 2009 at 8:19 am
Haha, that’s a fair point. Though that is just the policy, not the reality. I would actually argue that the dry campus idea shows how Furman kids are smarter than kids at other schools. The creativity and elusiveness required to bring the booze on campus and to have it hidden if needed keep the brains of FUers going all the time.
But seriously, I understand the Wofford part. I could not have gone to Virginia Tech. Though it’s not like there would’ve ever been a reason for me to want to.
February 10, 2009 at 2:42 pm
I think what you both have surmised is that Wofford is clearly the finest school of any of the aforementioned institutions. As a graduate of this school, I feel that this post both elevates and authenticates my prestigious education.
February 10, 2009 at 3:05 pm
If anything, our educational institutions are shamed and their reputations sullied by any of us even reading this blog.
That being said, I agree with your point. Wofford should be rated higher than the school Trey mentioned in his post: Harvard and Charleston.
February 10, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Whatever, my school was by the beach and free. You two went to an expensive and landlocked private school. I win. End of story.
But seriously, we can all agree that all of our schools are better than Harvard.
February 10, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Landlocked my arse. Furman Lake!
February 10, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Perhaps an anecdote could help resolve this argument. The summer after my freshman year of Furman I lived in Charleston. One day, while waiting to meet my roommate downtown, I meandered through the C of C bookstore. It was at this point that I overheard an incoming freshman and his mom whilst buying his books. The brief bit of the conversation I heard went thusly:
-Geez Mom! I’ve got to have 3 books for this one class!
-Really? I can’t believe there’s that many!
Now, the first class I had at Furman required that I purchase 13 books. Is Furman a superior school? I leave that up to you.
Also, Furman has magical swans that can fly you anywhere you want to go, so take that crappy Charleston beaches!
February 10, 2009 at 4:53 pm
And I think it’s important to note that not one place in that response did Brad even mention Wofford.
February 10, 2009 at 4:59 pm
What the hell kind of class requires 13 books? Did the professor write all of them? That’s a scam I’d be involved in if I were in academia. Write a 25 chapter book, sell all chapters separately, and require all 25 for my class. It would be a class devoted solely to Garfield’s relationship with Nermal.
February 10, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I took that class too, I think it was basically a book a week for the first semester.
I can get behind the Garfield/Nermal section though. Provided there was an entire chapter devoted to Abu Dhabi.
February 10, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Like I said in the post, no college is free of douches and the fact that you encountered one buying books WITH HIS MOM is not surprising.
Ok, for the Furman people I have this question. I heard that back in the day Furman’s mascot was the Christian Knights. However they had to change this mascot because the Furman University Christian Knights spells F.U.C.K.
Is that true?
And 13 books! Jeff is right, that is a racket. It’s like the Lil Wayne approach to academia. Sure I could make a cd or I could just pump out 1 song every week = I could write an actual book or I could pump out a bunch of small chapters. How are you supposed to retain anything meaningful if you read a book every week?
Beeches + 70% women = hot women in bikinis. That, my friends, is basically how Jeff and I spent our years at CofC. I rest my case.
February 10, 2009 at 5:23 pm
The Christian Knights legend is untrue. I actually wrote an article about that in the Furman paper back in ‘05. All of the sports used to have different names including Hurricanes, Paladins and something else. Student body picked Paladins as a single mascot in the early 60s.
And I really can’t argue with the beach idea, even if the beaches down there don’t even touch the NC beaches, let alone any actually good ones.
February 10, 2009 at 8:07 pm
I’d like to point out that Trey’s college education led him to spell beaches incorrectly. Furman wins again!!
February 11, 2009 at 10:03 am
Mike, I have totally agreed with you on all points up until you said that SC doesn’t have any good beaches (and we are talking shorelines, not trees as Trey mentions). Granted, I love the Outer Banks and many of the NC beaches, but you have to give SC beaches (minus Myrtle) at least SOME credit…
P.S. for the record – my cousin is a starting freshman at C of C. Her Spanish professor doesn’t speak fluent Spanish. How’s that for higher education?
February 11, 2009 at 10:06 am
Yeah, ok. There are some good SC beaches. I actually don’t know why I took that shot at SC beaches. The Outerbanks and all that are nice but are equally redneck to SC beaches. In fact, Wilmington is about as shite a place as I’ve ever been (in terms of beaches).
So, my apologies SC beach lovers. Your beaches are just as average as NC ones!
February 11, 2009 at 10:09 am
thank you
February 11, 2009 at 10:10 am
Haha. But the point remains that Furman is superior to all of your inferior ’schools.’ Don’t even think about challenging me on this. All the proof is in the fact that Brad was in a jury pool with Tony Kornheiser yesterday. That’s all you need to know.
February 11, 2009 at 11:56 am
ok i can’t spell. i’ve never been able spell. i got held back in 5th grade. but einstein was a bad speller too so i’m in good company.
and all the furman v woofford v cofc is off the point. the whole point is that it doesn’t matter what institution u went to so long as you inividually learned the maximum amount possible.
February 11, 2009 at 12:01 pm
I did not learn the maximum amount possible at Furman. Nor did I want to. If I wanted to learn the maximum amount possible, I would’ve gone to a really shite school where I could literally learn everything there was to get from my classes. But there were plenty of people smarter than me, harder working than me and more caring about their educational experience than me at Furman. I learned enough about the ways to read critically and write legibly to survive college as a reasonable adult going forward.
February 11, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Boom. Ditto.
February 11, 2009 at 3:40 pm
ok but my point was that if you did try your hardest at furman and got an A you could have got an A at Harvard as well bc the max effort is the max effort where ever you go to school
February 11, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Haha, maybe the best part is the ‘Boom.’
To your point, I think I disagree. I think max effort is great if you’re smart. But if you’re dumb, max effort is not going to get you an A at Harvard while it might get you one at UNC-Wilmington. I realize there are fewer differences than are popularly believed between the Ivies and other schools, but there still are differences. Many of them have to do with opportunities available to students/graduates of those schools but there still are real differences in the level of classes.
Not everyone at Harvard is smarter than I am, or was when I was applying to college, but many of them are. And I’m totally fine with that. If I’d been smarter, maybe I would’ve gone to an Ivy. Or maybe not. But there is a difference between schools, even if it seems unkind or unfair.